Better Half

Family, Life, and Politics from Wifey

Pro-Choice Christians September 17, 2008

Filed under: Uncategorized — raitking @ 12:28 am
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I was on the phone with my girlfriend on Sunday when our conversation turned to politics (surprise, surprise).  We began talking about the different views of the the respective parties, including abortion.  When I told her I was pro-choice on the issue, she was very surprised.  Before all you other Christian righters go clutching your pearls, let me explain why.

First of all let me say that this is an issue on which my husband Shaun and I completely disagree.  I would also like to state that in every area of my own personal life I am pro-life.  Meaning, even when the decision was tough, I have kept all of my children and have encouraged others to do the same.  For instance, I have a family member who has had four children out of wedlock by four different men.  Never once during any of those pregnancies did I encourage her to get an abortion.  As a matter of fact, I would have been dead set against it.

I’m not sure if Shaun has ever shared this part of our story.  Shaun and I were married on Septmeber 22, 2001.  Our first daughter Kendi was born on March 18, 2002.  For all you math genuises out there, you’ve already figured out that the timing for a completely wholesome marriage and birth doesn’t completely add up.  Yes…I was already about 3 months pregnant when we got married.  Which is why at the ages of 20 and 22, we got married when we did (I always put out the disclaimer though that it was always our intention to get married, just not so soon).  Anyway, when at 19 I found out I was pregnant, I was just a sophomore in college, Shaun was a senior, and neither of us had jobs.  So my first thought was that there was no way I was keeping this baby.  How could I?  It just seemed impossible.  Well obviously 6 years later, little Kendi is here (thank you Lord!), so I obviously made a different decision.  Shaun talked me out of the idea of getting an abortion and we prayed for God’s guidance and direction, we repented of our sin of premarital sex, got married, and 7 years later know it was the best decision of our lives.

All that being said, I see this decision as a personal one. Everyone doesn’t have the supportive family structure that Shaun and I had to be able to bring a baby into the world unexpectedly.  While my personal belief is that every child is a gift from God, and that life begins even before that baby is in the womb, everyone in this country is not a Christian, and I therefore don’t believe in the right of our lawmakers to legislate as though they are.

I thought a major principle of our constitution was to protect the rights of people against any type of religious tyranny.  Yet, the way I see it is that the same Christian righters who are sending missionaries to Islamic, Buddhist, and aethist countries to convert their citizenry, are the same one’s who want to turn this country into some type of Christian state.  It’s ok for us to force everyone to live according to our own personal religious beliefs, but not ok for other countries to do the same.  We’re the first to protest about communism (which seeks to impose one way of living and thinking on everyone), and fundamentalist Islamic rule in places like Iran and Afghanistan, but we want to impose the same type of “one size fits all” system in America except based on Christianity.  Say whatever you want about the extreme views of Islamic fundamentalists, but it seems they do what they do because they genuinely believe it is in coherence with the laws of their religion.

I say all this to say that while I am in favor of stricter standards regarding abortion (no late-term abortions, and limits on how many a woman is allowed to have-because I know that there are women who severly abuse the system), I don’t think it goes along with the principles of this country to make laws based on the religious views of one group.

I’m all for personal responsibility.  I think that women should be more careful about the situations they allow themselves to get into.  But I also know that good people sometimes make poor decisions.  I’ve been there.    I have 2 loving, Christian friends who are now happily married women with several kids of their own who 20 years ago made the very painful decision to abort an unwanted pregnancy because they were scared and alone, and didn’t see any other options.  If they hadn’t, who knows if they would have the happy lives they have today.  It worked out for me, but it doesn’t for everyone.  So yes we need to be more careful, but for those times when our human nature wins, and we’re not, some of us just need a second chance to get it right.  This is why I’m pro-choice.

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26 Responses to “Pro-Choice Christians”

  1. Thanks for your honest heart felt views on this subject. My heart goes out to every woman who finds herself in the position of making that kind of decision… and while I understand your reasoning… I always come out on the side that there is life inside. As a father of an adopted daughter… i am so glad that her birth mom made the difficult choice to carry to term, even though it was difficult for her… Her biological daughter, which we adopted has brought great joy to our life and is an amazing, bright, and beautiful 16 year old that I cannot imagine my life without.
    Again, thanks for sharing your view point…

  2. beyondJEMS Says:

    Very well said! I found your blog via Twitter & Andrea Lopez & Shaun. I see your point about not enforcing christian views via government dictatorship on the general public.

    I also see how someone could still say it’s murder and it should not be supported. Since you must believe that it is murder, because you believe that life begins in the womb, what point do you make to argue that? I know that life at conception belief is a christian one and not everyone believes it is murder.

    Before you freak out at what I say next, please know I’m just playing devil’s advocate here to frame the debate. Because I really like what you said. And I had an abortion (regrettably) when I was 18. I am a Christian and not sure where I stand on this one b/c of the points you have made. But I just cant get over the fact that based on our beliefs it is murder so how do you condone it. With that said here’s my point…

    This could be viewed in the same light as child molestation. Say that a culture or society formed to say that a 40 yo man ‘loving’ a 15 yo girl is ok if it is with her consent. Many would say that is molestation. But what if it was their belief that age didnt matter, along with some guidelines… 12 too young, but 14,15 or 16 is not. Heck they can drive cars, should be old enough to made a decision about love. We as a society would say HECK no you sick pervert! But is that imposing our christian beliefs? Our puritan/quaker foundings coming out? We do say it’s illegal. But there are likely cultures in other countries that support that union of ages. see what i’m getting at? If my daughter brings home a 30 yo when she’s 15, I’m calling the authorities.

    Why does the government have a say in that situation, but not the other? Or should they have no say in either?

    Just food for thought! I love your points!!! Bc I believe pro-life, vote pro-choice. Now I have a little more to go on.

  3. Avril Says:

    Thank you so much for posting this! It’s so nice to find another Christian woman that feels similar to the way that I do on this subject. I think that what a woman does with her body should be her own choice. I agree that some people do abuse that choice, however, generally speaking I think women should be ALLOWED the freedom to make that choice. I feel like with this issue sometimes we confuse our own personal choices and convictions with government responsibilities. While my HOPE would be that women would NOT choose to get abortions, that is my own opinion. That’s my own moral conviction. But to me, the issue of being pro-choice or pro-life the way we talk about it in the political realm is less about moral conviction and more about privacy and governmental control. Why should the government make the decision about what a woman does with her body? The government doesn’t make decisions about anything else concerning a woman’s body so why this?

    To be honest, there were some times in my life where I had some close calls and really considered it as an option. I was still in school and wasn’t sure how much support I would get. I ended up not being pregnant. But how many women actually do get pregnant and don’t have a strong support and then end up with a kid they don’t want or can’t take care up and then that kid ends up having a rotten life?

    I think what we also have to consider is that banning abortion is not going to make it go away. Women have been getting abortions for years. I remember reading some website that said that about 1.2 MILLION illegal abortions were performed PER YEAR before Roe v. Wade even went into effect. These abortions were unsafe and so how many women lost their lives because of these unsafe, unsterile conditions? Roe v. Wade allowed women to have safe abortions from well-trained doctors, which did lead to less pregnancy-related deaths.

    I am pro-choice because yes, babies deserve to live, but I think women that make certain personal choices do too. As you said, everybody is not a Christian. I think maybe instead of removing the option altogether, we as Christians should think about ways we can encourage and support those that find themselves in such a situation so that they know they have options and that they can freely and willingly make a different CHOICE.

  4. Case Says:

    wow… So the ends justify the means?
    Sin is sin…taking(ending) a life is sin…
    Abortion is the Ending of a life (insert murder, killing, collapsing of a brain and being ripped apart) = abortion is sin.

    All have sinned…

    But were not pro-sin?
    Pro-murder?

    It shouldn’t be called pro-choice…just insert pro-baby life ending…killing in it’s place to fully disclose the support for pro-choice.

    Doesn’t add up. We all have friends who’ve made mistakes but to console those mistakes by being “pro” the decision that allows the mistake is not an act of Christian legislation …. Let’s be more clear:
    It’s more similar to the word accomplice…the person driving the car for the person robbing the bank. Is it wrong to rob? Well he needed the money and times were hard…so I’m “pro” him doing whatever he needs to do.

    I will never support the decisions that
    have results like abortion=sin.

    I know sin is scary…but this way of thinking scares me more than anything I may have read in a while.

  5. adam Says:

    just a couple of comments..

    you said:

    “I have 2 loving, Christian friends who are now happily married women with several kids of their own who 20 years ago made the very painful decision to abort an unwanted pregnancy because they were scared and alone, and didn’t see any other options. If they hadn’t, who knows if they would have the happy lives they have today.”

    and i say – so what if they wouldn’t have “happy lives”? does the prospect of a “happy life” give us free license to do something evil? i don’t think so.

    second (and last) – who is to watch out for these little lives, little souls lost through abortion? your entire argument, which i’ve heard before from other pro-choice people, is based on the examination of the mother’s life. HER value, HER situation, HER poor choices, HER choice, HER future. what about that unborn child, the hairs that God has counted, the name that God knows before it’s chosen?

    i equate abortion to someone choosing to extinguish the life of their 2 year old child for whatever reason. if it’s ok for the legal system to outlaw that, then why isn’t it ok for abortion to be outlawed? i don’t think there is any scriptural difference between the life and soul of a 2 year old and the life and soul of an embryo.

  6. Brandi Says:

    I disagree with you on this, but I can respectfully disagree until I read this sentence:

    “I have 2 loving, Christian friends who are now happily married women with several kids of their own who 20 years ago made the very painful decision to abort an unwanted pregnancy because they were scared and alone, and didn’t see any other options. If they hadn’t, who knows if they would have the happy lives they have today.”

    When did our happiness or lack thereof start giving us license to sin? If we believe what Scripture says that we are woven together in the womb.. that GOD creates life…. how can we refuse to acknowledge that ending of life by any means other than God taking it in HIS timing is not sin?!?! Who knows if they would have had the “happy” lives they have today?!! Since when is God’s plan for any of us to make us “happy”? Is our happiness the way we judge right & wrong or what to do? I hope that God never allows me to fall into basing my decisions on happiness, but rather that the pursuit of holiness would be what determines my view of right / wrong & influences my decision making.

  7. raitking Says:

    Robert:
    I agree that adoption is a beautiful thing. As a teacher I come into contact with dozens of children caught up in the foster care system. I struggle because I would like nothing more than to scoop them up and bring them home with me. I wish that it were easier and less expensive to do. I have friends who are trying to adopt now and are running in to so much red tape. It’s one of the things that attracted me to Barack Obama because he addresses the need to make adoption more accessible in order to lessen the number of women who feel abortion is their only option. Thank you for your comment.

  8. raitking Says:

    beyondJEMS:

    Thank you for sharing your story. And thank you for your honest reflections on the subject of abortion.

    I have had many of the same thoughts and questions you expressed in your comment.

    I can’t say that I think of abortion as “murder.” When I say that I believe life begins even before the womb I am referring more to our spiritual lives. I believe that God knew us even before he formed us (knows our name, our futures, etc). But as to the question of becoming a living, breathing being, I just can’t say. A “baby” in the womb can’t survive on it’s own until 20+ weeks gestation, and for the first few months isn’t much bigger than 1/2 and inch. Some say this doesn’t matter, others disagree. I think murder has an element of malicious intent behind it, and I don’t think most women choose abortion out of malice.
    You’re right, it’s hard to know where to draw the line. I think in the case of molestation, we can all agree that once a baby is born, there is no question of its value as a human being. So we as adults need to do everything within our power to nurture and protect those lives.
    You’re also right that some countries have traditions that we consider taboo-such as the marrying off of young girls. Obviously, America has decided this is against the law. So if a man wants to exercise his “right” to be with whatever child he wants regardless of the age, he’ll have to go elsewhere or suffer the consequences. Rightfully so if you ask me!

  9. raitking Says:

    Avril:
    Thanks for your post. I knew there had to be others out there who felt the way I did. I think too often we are made to feel like we’re not really Christians, or don’t really love children if we are pro-choice. Nothing could be further from the truth!
    I couldn’t agree with you more that if it is “sin” that Christian righters are so outraged about, they should be doing more to prevent the number of unwanted pregnancies. One idea would be to stop pretending like sex education is so immoral, and like teenagers aren’t thinking about sex already.
    I think it’s one of those “fake morality” issues that people pretend to be so outraged about, but really aren’t. IF they were, they’d be working like crazy behind the scenes doing whatever they thought was necessary to drastically limit the number of abortions taking place. Because plugging your ears, shutting your eyes and spitting bible verses to people who may or may not be Christians anyway, doesn’t seem to be working.

  10. raitking Says:

    Case:
    I’m sorry to have “scared” you with my way of thinking. Again, YOU believe abortion is “sin.” Everyone that lives in this country does not. Everyone that lives in this country does not even subscribe to the idea of “sin” or evil, etc. That is YOUR own personal belief. And you, nor the government has the right to tell someone else what to do with their own body based on YOUR religious beliefs.
    I never said I supported my friends’ decision to have an abortion. If I had known them then, I probably would have tried to talk them out of it, because of MY OWN personal belief that God can redeem any situation that you put before Him-even scary, unwanted pregnancies.
    What I do support is the fact that they had the option to not bring a baby into the world that they could not support, whom they may have done more harm than good. I know these women now, and it was a decision that was not made easily, and still haunts them. However, they did what was best for them at the time. I do not fault them for that.
    I think too often we are guilty of speaking on things that we know nothing about. Too many of the “Christian right” live in a bubble. Too many are so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good. You hate abortion so much, what are you doing to prevent women from feeling like they have no other choice? What single mother are you helping to support? What fatherless child are you mentoring? What teenage girl/boy are you having honest, open discussions about sex and its consequences with? Are you another one of those people who are screaming loud and DOING nothing?
    Unless you’ve lived it, unless you’ve been face to face with the scary prospect of raising a child in this world completely on your own, unless you’re hitting the pavement doing all you can to help women make a different choice, don’t be so quick to judge!!!!

  11. raitking Says:

    adam:
    I understand your perspective. However, I disagree because it is still based on YOUR OWN religious views, that thanks to the “free” nature of this country, not all people share.

    There is an obvious difference between a 2 year old and a baby that is 2 months in gestational age. One has obviously been born and is a living, breathing vessel in its own right. It no longer has to be attached to the mother for survival. It without question has a right to be protected. It’s not necessarily the same thing with something inside a woman’s womb that is about the size of my pinky nail.

    What gives us the right to make laws based on our religious view of issues? There are many Muslims in this country who believe God is called Allah. Would you support legislation to change the wording of the dollar bill to “in Allah we trust?” Of course not. You’d tell those people that they had no right to impose their way of life on you.

    That’s my point really. You read scripture and believe it. I do as well. But everyone doesn’t. And they shouldn’t be forced to live by the laws of our Christian faith. Not in this “free” country.

  12. raitking Says:

    Brandi:
    I use the word “happiness” loosely. I agree that making decisions based purely on one’s own happiness is neither mature nor Christ-like. Although, I do believe that God desires us to find happiness in Him, and that Jesus’ coming to give us “life more abundantly” could be interpreted to mean that Jesus wants us to live abundant, maybe even “happy” lives.

    What I am really speaking about in my post is more about stability. Who knows if these women that I know would have had the “stable,” “productive” lives they have now if they had given birth to babies 20 years ago that they could not take care of. You may be surprised to know that BOTH of the women I am speaking of are now pastor’s wives who play huge roles in their respective churches. Who knows what unstable path their lives would have taken, instead of the blessed path it has taken now is what I’m saying.

    It worked out for me, as I said in my post. But I know all too well that most women who have children out of wedlock that they cannot support end up living lives of struggle and heartache that don’t ONLY affect them, but their children as well. These are the children who are often (not always) hungry, poor, unclothed, and without resources. I teach these children, and I have been one of these children to some extent. It’s NO FUN for anyone. And is really no way to have to grow up.

    My problem with such strong supporters of pro-life is that I think your message is often “Keep that baby. Killing it is sin. But what happens after that, you’re own your own.” You scream so loud for these babies to be kept but then don’t support legislation that would help take care of them like free or reduced childcare,and free or reduced healthcare. You call these “social” programs that are outside of the government’s responsibilities! It’s neither just nor Christ-like if you ask me. You want women to make a different decision? Then role up your sleeves and help make it a little easier for them.

  13. adam Says:

    rai-

    many of our laws, codes and statutes are based on biblical principles. should we toss those out as well, just to make sure no one is imposed upon?

    i spent 18 years of my life very far from all religion, Christianity included. i thought then, as i do now, that terminating a pregnancy for the convenience of the mother is barbaric and just plain wrong!

    as far as a 2 year old child not being attached to its mother for survival.. true… but can that child survive on its own, unattached? no. i still don’t see any difference.

    beating hearts, multiplying cells, discernible anatomic structure, and changes in the mother’s body which announce pregnancy are all indicators of the beginnings of life.

    toss religion out and let’s talk about the progress of our species. if you want to take it down to darwin’s level then, fine, abortion is A.O.K.. kill off our unborn young in order to further our own interests.

    not every religion and creed believes that murder is sinful. some believe in literal eye for an eye punishment. some believe in polygamy. in some belief structures it’s OK to be sexually involved with children. heck, while we’re being fair, let’s not forget about the satan worshipers who are just fine with murder, cannibalism, rape and anything else the evil heart of man can dream up.

    so if you are going to hold true to this belief – the belief that abortion should be legal because not everyone thinks it’s unacceptable – then what about these other issues? do you also believe that abortion is a non-issue – something that’s not detrimental to humanity, society and our progress as a culture?

    back to religion, at least these babies go straight into their Father’s arms. at least they don’t know they were reduced to a mistake – a bag of trash to be incinerated, marked a biohazard. at least they know God wants them, even if their own mothers didn’t.

    we can agree on something. we can agree that we ALL need to do something about the root of the problem. i pledge, before God, you, and everyone else reading here, that my daughter will be well informed. i won’t be afraid to teach her OR my son about sex and it’s potential consequences. i will teach them about the sanctity of life, God’s plan for our lives, and the unconditional love from God, mom, dad and others important in their lives.

    signed : roe v wade survivor, adam black

  14. raitking Says:

    adam-
    Once again, thanks for responding. I like going back and forth with you on this. I find you to be a little more level headed than some others 🙂
    I want to answer your questions. First of all abortion is not about the “convenience” of the mother. Sometimes it is about the well-being of the child. You don’t see that? I don’t know your background obviously, but if you have grown up with a poor, single mother you know it can be a terrifying, unhappy upbringing. My point in this is that we have a major responsibility to these children that we INSIST so strongly should be born. Right to Life is about more than the right to be born. It is also about the right to a decent, quality life. That is a point that is overlooked by most Christian righters.

    As to the doing away with of other laws based on Christianity, I’m not sure how many there are. I think there are some basic things we humans can agree are just, and fair. My point is not that abortion should be legal because not everyone thinks it’s unacceptable. I am making the bigger point that in a country that espouses religious freedom, it is not right to create legislation based purely on the religious beliefs of one group.
    And your views on abortion are definitely religiously based, and are not scientific. The idea of when life begins has not been established as truth by the scientific community, only in the religious community.

    Bringing molesters and devil worshippers into the conversation is comparing apples and oranges. One is committing crimes against born people whose human value has already been established and is indisputable.

    I think that everyone, even women who’ve had abortions. would agree that it is ugly and undesirable. But I think you lack grace and understanding concerning women who are faced with this decision. The vast majority are not evil baby killers who only care about themselves. It’s amazing that we display so much “compassion” for the unborn, yet give such little support to those already born who are facing such a tough situation.

    Let me ask you one more thing. Are you as extreme as Sarah Palin and believe that abortion should be illegal even in cases of rape and incest?

  15. Brandi Says:

    im going to assume that in the last paragraph of your response to me you used the word “you” to represent your stereotype of the white conservative, and not me personally.

    because otherwise, i might be offended.

    i am all for social programs that help those who truly need it. if it meant the government using money more wisely to help sustain life or even an increased tax to offer assistance to those in need of raising their child in a healthy environment, so be it.

    but there ARE options for mothers who are in that position… adoption… even hospitals that are on national news that allow mothers or anyone to drop off babies with no questions asked!!! there is no excuse for murdering a baby. no matter how much it might “inconvenience” the life of an adult. If you make the decision to have sex… whether in the context of marriage or outside the context of marriage… you make the decision to accept the consequences. in making abortion so easy & socially acceptable we are relieving people of the consequences to their actions & giving them an easy way out.

  16. adam Says:

    rai-

    i too enjoy the discussion 🙂

    a few points:

    -i find it preposterous that you think abortion is really about the well being of the child rather than the mother’s circumstances.. wow. if i ever decide to murder someone who is in a bad spot in life i’ll try that argument in court. dollars to donuts i get locked up in the looney bin!

    -i find it preposterous, as you do, that we don’t do more to take care of the kids born into bad situations. i believe in the power of faith-based organizations to help this problem and wish they would do more. my wife and i are working towards adopting a child, so we’re trying to do our part. i agree that it’s sickening, and there needs to be more help available.

    -i believe abortion issues go far beyond religious ideals and beliefs. i know many agnostic and atheist people who are disgusted by the practice. i think this is an issue of right versus wrong, which is a concept all people, religious or not, have the capability to understand.

    -the scientific community disagrees about when life begins, yes. there aren’t many issues without dissent among scientists. nobody knows for sure. so what do you think about creation versus evolution? scientists don’t know the answers and it’s all conjecture. so what should be taught in schools? if nobody’s sure then should anything be taught?

    -regarding your apples to oranges comment, you are right. i color my thoughts there with my religious beliefs. i believe unborn babies have value that has been established. it is, however, considered murder or manslaughter in some jurisdictions to injure a pregnant woman and cause her to lose the baby. should this be?

    -regarding Palin’s stance, is it OK to say that i just plain don’t know? parts of me lean both ways. i have no idea. 🙂

    another question for you.. why is this only a mother’s issue? say my wife becomes pregnant. say she decides she wants an abortion. i have no say in the matter whatsoever. it doesn’t matter if i plan to stick with her and take care of the child. should i have any say in the matter?

  17. Shannon Says:

    in response to one of your responses to a gentlemen on here: he wasn’t judging at all. Its actually funny to read your list cause if you only knew how much of that and more he has been actively doing for YEARS now. I know this individual and am quite familiar with the following:
    A cd to raise money for an abotion prevention center that was recorded last Christmas…made up of 10 original songs that he made NO money off of(lost lots of money), spent hundreds of hours workin on, and was able to raise with a team of others, over $10,000 to send to this place in Romania which is the equivalent of about $50,000 here. A benefit concert took place, more money sent, more songs written to help raisenawareness and support. Personal sacrifice that u won’t see him bragging about. He wouldn’t argue on this end so I will for him.
    He has also been raising a girl on the side (helping a single mom) since he girl was 6yrs old (now 20) who has saved herself for marriage and broke all the statistics against her poor, fatherless upbringing in a small town. He has given money to the mom to help her fornyears without the girl even knowing. For many years hes worked at just such a camp that helps parentless kids and also a youth home for boys to try and make a difference. He will never brag or make that known… I know cause I have been a freind to observe his life.
    Hundreds of babies saved through the efforts he has been a part of so this is why he reslonded as passionately as he did, as someone who has given a lot of their life to this, not just the stage you see them and judge them on. So who is judging now?

    Further more, Sin is a God labeled thing, like it or not, and this topic isn’t about peoples familiarity with the word…though MOST are.
    This is about abortion being a legalized act. An opportunity given to a woman to end a life. How could a person call theirself a Christian and be okay with it. If your not a believe and follower of Jesus than it makes sense, still don’t believe in letting you kill a baby, but it’s understandable that your thinking isn’t under the guidance of the holy spirit, and you haven’t died to yourselfish desires and your flesh.
    Avoiding scripture references since those bother you.

    But you are a Christ follower, You wear the name of Jesus
    You are suppose to draw your thinking from the mind of Christ.
    Not finding ways to condone sin or anything that is against his nature like killing a baby.
    That is the issue. I’m probably stepping out of line for his defense but I’m praying I’m speaking as I feel Paul would have to peter as he did or members of the church that he loved bug were excersising BAD thinking.

    Inrealize none are perfect, but you are consciously saying things that don’t line up with what you profess as a Christian. Again, a nonbeliever than sure say what you have said.

    Regardless of personal beliefs this is an issue of playing with things that belong to God to determine…life…death…
    Do you support the death penalty? Forget it it’s pointless I won’t be convincing you of anything and what would it matter if I did.
    So for now, enjoy those bits of info I gave you about your misjugement of he guy you were harping on for judging, kind of an oxymoron right?
    May you grow in wisdom beyond this day and since His heart for this.

  18. raitking Says:

    Brandi-
    You are right in a sense. All the “you’s” in the last paragraph are referring to a group of people, not necessarily “you” personally, b/c obviously I don’t really know “you.”
    But I would not say I am referring to ‘white conservatives’ because I don’t associate conservatism with being white. I think a lot of people would be surprised to know that a great majority of black people have very conservative views. My mother voted for George Bush BOTH TIMES!!! So did most of my friends. So I wouldn’t say “white.” My term for people like you (?) is Christian Righters.
    Again, abortion is not the easy way out. Not by a long shot.

  19. raitking Says:

    Adam-
    I don’t always think abortion is about the well-being of the chidl verses the mother. Not always. But let me tell you from first hand experience that very ugly things can happen when women give birth to children they aren’t prepared to be responsible for. Things that mainly hurt the children. I teach them, I’m raising one, I am one.

    But at the same time, I have to honestly admit that for me, even with the hard times, I’m glad I was born. Which is why I will always encourage any woman I know to have her child. I personally believe God can do anything. He can make any crooked path straight. But that is MY OWN PERSONAL BELIEF! I don’t expect everyone to subscribe to it.

    Regarding what should be taught in schools, it’s ok to teach varying scientific perspectives, because they are scientific, and school is the place for that. Public school, however, is not the place for religious theory (not until college or electives in high school, I think). That’s just my own thought on the teaching of evolution.

    I must admit you’ve got me on the whole causing a pregnant woman to loose her baby thing. That’s really tough. I do think it should be prosecuted. A woman having her unborn child TAKEN from her is different from a woman choosing to abort a pregnancy. I realize the waters are getting muddied here. I’m tongue tied on this one.

    To your question of why it’s just a mother’s issue, I don’t think it should be. I thank God that I was not alone when I found myself at the age of 19 pregnant with Kendi. I probably wouldn’t have kept her. I think that in the best case scenarios, a man and woman come together and decide jointly what’s best for their lives and the unborn fetus. But I think most women that abort their pregnancies do so because they feel so scared and alone.

  20. raitking Says:

    Shannon-

    You are right that I lumped Case in with the whole lot of Christian Righters who tend to talk the talk and not walk the walk. I am glad to know that he at least puts his money and energy behind his beliefs and tries to make the world better instead of simply pointing the finger.

    I can appreciate you defending your friend. But what I can’t appreciate is your questioning of my Christianity. One of the more arrogant perspectives of you Christian righters is that you think you have a license on what it means to be Christian.

    The truth is that you don’t know anything about me except my view on this one issue.

    The last time I checked the requirement for my salvation was that I believe in the work of Jesus Christ and be born again. Nowhere in there does it say my political views must line up with those of the Christian right in order to be saved or considered a follower of Christ.

    While I’m sure it makes you feel all warm and holy inside to see your views as Christ-like, and mine as evil, the truth is that you are just as human as I am and don’t get decide who really loves God and who doesn’t. So if I were you, I’d stay away from the whole “how could you call yourself a Christian” business.

    And your sly comment on scripture bothering me is insulting. I’ve been a Christian my entire life. I love the word of God and consult it for the very important issues of my life. I actually believe my life is incredibly blessed because I do endeavor to live my life according to it’s mandates (in raising my children, relating to my husband, etc.). But what I don’t do is trivialize the bible by constantly using scripture in and out of context to justify my personal views. I know enough to know that you can make the bible say whatever you want depending on how you use it (just ask the devil-he knows the word better than most Christians). SO some random person quoting scripture to me doesn’t carry much weight. Especially when they’re quoting it in regard to an off hand comment my husband made that was designed to be humorous.

    I prefer the word of God be used for its intended purpose. NOT by spiritual space cadets who can’t stub their toe without quoting scripture.

    And one more thing, don’t bother praying that I will “grow in wisdom” concerning my views on abortion. I find it amusing that people like you dismiss opposing views as a lack of wisdom on the part of the opposed. I’ve heard such arrogant arguments before. I can’t just have a different world view without being considered evil or ignorant?

    Save your prayers for someone who needs them-or for a time when I actually really need them.

  21. Shannon Says:

    which in my opinion is now.
    Never said how do u call yourself a Christian in the sense you just said I did. I declared that you are a Christian self proclaimed whose views don’t line up. Sorry but killing an unborn child is not the nature put in us by the Spirit. None of us will be perfect in everything. Mindless moments and a nature to sin will rise up, But u defend this act in a way that doesn’t line up. so you read me saying your not a Christian, I read me saying your not making sense as a Christian and fully believe your lack of wisdom in this grieves His heart. You avoided the questions like “others” u support, and judged the fool out of someone without addressing the real issue.

    But do blog away, as it is a right you have. And i find u interesting in your unique way of “doing thungs” and fact is you read what i had to say so i feel fine with leaving it at that, definitely dont feel like convincing you of anything as that wouldnt accomplish much would it now?

    My favorite line of yours is u being a Christian sense birth, kinda cool you got that opportunity. Selah.

  22. sslolley Says:

    Whoa. Hang in there Rai — sparks are a flying. I just mosied over here to read your blog. I respect your answers and the way you’ve presented your views. Hope the pregnancy is going fine (my daughter’s having her second child around March 1) — and keep on blogging.

  23. raitking Says:

    Shannon-

    I’m not sure what questions I avoided. I think it should be obvious that I’m not the duck and cover type, so if I avoided a question, it was not intentional.

    I’m not sure what you’re saying I’m defending. I think in this whole back and forth you have lost sight of my view. I do not defend abortion, I simply believe it is a religious issue, and not one for the government.

    Also, I have the ability to display a level of compassion for women who are in really difficult situations whether they are self-induced or not. You gather from this that I support their decision to abort. That is not the case. I simply understand it, and don’t judge them for it.

    I too have said all I feel I need to say on the issue.

  24. raitking Says:

    sslolley-

    Thanks for your comment. And congrats on your new grandchild. And also thanks for the encouragement. I enjoy the discussion and have no plans to quit blogging anytime soon 🙂

  25. jared Says:

    Please hear this well,

    no i think you should seriously, seriously consider not blogging at least not for a while.
    dont expect you to listen to me. But blogging is more than throwing your opinions out there in the internet world for ANY and ALL to read…and all your words to be held against you.

    its too easy to be emotional. too easty to get defensive and when your in a position like you are, as a pastors wife, you get looked at even harder and you take your church’s name with you in ever debate and comment and loose word if one comes out.

    doesnt mean you are needing to be flawless and perfect to blog. but do think about it a lot as you are pregnant and in the middle of what looks like some HOT debates and topics.

    just want to implore you to be healthy, and realize just cause you have an opinion doesnt mean everyone needs to know it.

    people will now meet you and define you by your opinions not the sum of who you are, which is the danger of blogging.
    its good but can be bad.

    pursue shorter concise answers. less is more. let people put words in your mouth not the other way around and that way you arent responsible for what you actually didnt say.

    there are one liners zooming around everywhere on here, im saying be careful. walk blamlessly on here and dont let your good be spoken of as evil. that kind of stuff

    just sharing a unthreatening comment of encouragment to be careful.

  26. raitking Says:

    jared-

    While I appreciate what I think is your concern, I (of course) disagree. I rather enjoy blogging and think it is the perfect place to express your opinions. If for no other reason that if someone doesn’t like it, they can simply go to someone else’s blog.

    I am also finding that while there are always those that disagree with my point of view, there are also those that find it refreshing and are inspired by my posts. Some of them comment on here, others may send a message to facebook. I don’t weigh one type of response more heavily than another.

    At the end of the day, behind all of the “one liners” and back and forth, I think most people who choose to comment do so from a good place, and not a bad one. I can deal with that, pregnant and all.


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